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Tuesday, April 11, 2006

Abrahamic What?

A couple of months ago I had a discussion with Abdul Halim of planet grenada about the origins of Islam and "Abrahamic" religions. I have asserted, as others have before me, that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are in fact derivatives of the Egyptian Mysteries probably mixed in with local cultures. With the new
"10 commandments" movie about to air on ABC, I thought it may be a good time to revisit the issue and fully lay out my position, which again is based on the works of others.

Let me begin by saying that in general all religion is local folklore. Religion is a means by which people rationalize the events around them, many of which at the time were simply unexplainable. Religion also encompasses the culture of the people who create it. It often contains their folklore and bits of their history as well as their propaganda. All this is important to understanding what will be laid out shortly.

Part I: Where Oh Where to Begin

One of the things that one eventually learns about the Bible is that some of the oldest mystical material is found in the New Testament. Let me start with the following:

John 1:1 states:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


When we look at the "Book of Knowing the Evolution of Ra" (Budge, 1895) we find:

I am he who evolved himself under the form of the god Khepera, , the evolver of the evolutions evolved myself, the evolver of all evolutions after many evolutions and developments which came forth from my mouth (another variant has "I bought into my own mouth my name as a word of power, and I straightway came into being"). No heaven existed, and no earth and no terrestial animals or reptiles had come into being. I formed them out of the inert mass of watery matter, I found no place whereon to stand..., I was alone, and the gods Shu and Tefnut had not gone forth from me; there existed none other who worked with me. I laid the foundations of all things by my will. and all things evolved themselves therefrom. I united myself to my shadow, and I sent for Shu and Tefnut out from myself; thus from being one god I became three...

Now it is pretty clear here that the concept of the WORD being the prime mover of creation is established as "known" to Ancient Egypt predating anything John had to say on the subject. But we know that at the time of John, these ideas were in wide circulation and known to the writers of said texts.

Also of interest is that creation was guided by Maa (Divine Intelligence) through the utterances of Tehuti (Oft referred to as Thoth). This brings us back to Genesis chapter 1:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters. 3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. {P}

6 And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.' 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. {P}

9 And God said: 'Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear.' And it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters called He Seas; and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' And it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, herb yielding seed after its kind, and tree bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. {P}

14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. {P}

20


So we have creation by word. we have God creating himself through his own will. we have God making light first (Ra first manifests as the Sun) and then the rest of creation is done through utterances or will. I point this out to show the reader just how much Egyptian (to be referred to as Khemet from now on) thought permeates the religions texts of so called "Abrahamic" religions. I'd like to point out that it is Proper to call Ra "He" since as is common in Khemtic theology to have a female counterpart, in this case Mut-em-Ra.

Not to be ommited, we should also examine the Papyrus of Ani Plate XIX Chapter XV :Homage to thee O Ra...from whome all forms of life came into being. Thou sendeth forth the word and the earth is flooded with silence, O thou only One who livedst in heaven before even the earth and the mountains were made. O Runner, Lord, Only One, though maker of things which are, thou hast moulded the tongue of the company of gods (Paut neteru) thou hast drawn forth whatsoever cometh from the waters, and thou springest up from them over the flooded land of the Lake of Horus. Make me to sniff the air which cometh forth from thy nostrils.

Word, formed life and breathed air into the nostril of man. I mean can we get any more plagaristic?


It is important to note that these concepts were well established in Khemet by the time this person Abraham (previously Abram) shows up. Lets look at the biblical account of Abraham.

Genesis 12:

10 And there was a famine in the land; and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was sore in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife: 'Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon. 12 And it will come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they will say: This is his wife; and they will kill me, but thee they will keep alive. 13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister; that it may be well with me for thy sake, and that my soul may live because of thee.' 14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair. 15 And the princes of Pharaoh saw her, and praised her to Pharaoh; and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And he dealt well with Abram for her sake; and he had sheep, and oxen, and he-asses, and men-servants, and maid-servants, and she-asses, and camels. 17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said: 'What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? 19 Why saidst thou: She is my sister? so that I took her to be my wife; now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.' 20 And Pharaoh gave men charge concerning him; and they brought him on the way, and his wife, and all that he had.

So we find Abraham wandering around after being told by God to leave the "land of his father" and wound up in Egypt. Now upon entering Egypt Abraham tells his wife to tell a rather big lie. God, apparently in cahoots with Abraham, then brings plagues on Pharaoh's house. Lets stop here for a minute. Abraham tells a lie to save his neck. God, who is going to allegedly "instruct" the Israelites on the sinfulness of lying, makes life difficult for the Egyptians. Ok. Now we should note that the text clearly states that this was a Pharaoh and therefore we are talking about pharonic Khemet. In this Khemet we know that they have rules against lying and adultery

Behold a portion of the Negative Confessions found in the Papyrus of Ani:

Hail, Neba, who comest and goest, I have not uttered lies.
Hail, Qerrti, who comest forth from Amentet, I have not committed adultery,
Hail, Tutu, who comest forth from Ati, I have not debauched the wife of any man.


So Abraham caused the Pharaoh to break his religious laws so we understand why he is so upset. Now back to Abraham. the Torah is pretty clear that Abraham was a liar. Abraham also doesn't know too much religion. But what is most important is that this account was not written by Abraham or any of his contemporaries. At the most fundamentalist, Genesis and the Plutarch are written by Moses himself. This is important because none of the people before Moses (with a possible exception of Joseph) can write. There is no written Hebrew at this time. It is known that written Hebrew is derived from Khemet. How so? Below are two pages of copied text from a dictionary located at Tuskegee University, Tuskegee AL. in this dictionary they had the historical characters used to represent the various letters now in use. They showed Roman, Khemtic, Semitic and Phonencian of each.

Other scholars point to the Plutarch being written at about 200 BCE by persons with particular ideologies to push (hence a lying abraham and a God in cahoots). Either way, what is important to realize is that the text is pretty clear that Abraham and his folk are no where near the development as the Khemites to which they are going to be in close proximity to for a while. A long while.

So at this point we have to realize that Abraham didn't found any religion. He had a few dreams, proped up some rocks and called it a temple and had some kids. It is clear that Israelite theology would not really form until Moses steps on the scene. If you look at all the writing in Genesis you have chapters upon chapters on who begat who. You have Noah and his Ark, using measurements only known after the flood (ain't that odd). You have Joseph getting jacked for his jacket. You have Joseph in Egypt. But you have no discussion of theology. You have no laws, no elaborate temples. No priests. All you have is God telling Abraham where to go, what to say and what is going to happen to his seed. I could stop here, having generally proved the point that there is no such thing as a Abrahamic religion but rather those who may trace their ancestry to Abraham, none of whom are in West Africa.

Before getting to Moses, we should note the 12 tribes of Israel as delineated in Exodus 1:

1 Now these are the names of the sons of Israel, who came into Egypt with Jacob; every man came with his household: 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah; 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin; 4 Dan and Naphtali, Gad and Asher. 5

This is an interesting number, 12, because it is significant in terms of Khemet. The Paut Neteru is a collection of "neters" commonly translated as "the company of the gods." Thes Paut Neteru or Paut AAT are usually the nine "greatest gods of Egypt (Budge): Tmu, Shu, Tefnut, Seb, Nut, Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephhthys.

Sometimes, and this is important, the Paut Neteru refers to twelve neters. so adding RA, Horus, and Het-Heru, we get the big twelve. Is it coincidental that there are twelve tribes of Israelm delineated in Exodus? Another coincidence I suppose. You will also note that in the newly revealed Gospel Of Judas we find:

“Adamas was in the first luminous cloud that no angel has ever seen among all those
called ‘God.’ He [49] […] that […] the image […] and after the likeness of [this] angel.
He made the incorruptible [generation] of Seth appear […] the twelve […] the twentyfour
[…]. He made seventy-two luminaries appear in the incorruptible generation, in
accordance with the will of the Spirit. The seventy-two luminaries themselves made three
hundred sixty luminaries appear in the incorruptible generation, in accordance with the
will of the Spirit, that their number should be five for each.
“The twelve aeons of the twelve luminaries constitute their father, with six heavens for
each aeon, so that there are seventy-two heavens for the seventy-two luminaries, and for
each [50] [of them five] firmaments, [for a total of] three hundred sixty [firmaments …].
They were given authority and a [great] host of angels [without number], for glory and
adoration, [and after that also] virgin spirits, for glory and [adoration] of all the aeons and
the heavens and their firmaments.

and

“The multitude of those immortals is called the cosmos— that is, perdition—by the
Father and the seventy-two luminaries who are with the Self-Generated and his seventytwo
aeons. In him the first human appeared with his incorruptible powers. And the aeon
that appeared with his generation, the aeon in whom are the cloud of knowledge and the
angel, is called [51] El. […] aeon […] after that […] said, ‘Let twelve angels come into
being [to] rule over chaos and the [underworld].’ And look, from the cloud there
appeared an [angel] whose face flashed with fire and whose appearance was defiled with
blood. His name was Nebro, which means ‘rebel’; others call him Yaldabaoth. Another
angel, Saklas, also came from the cloud. So Nebro created six angels—as well as
Saklas—to be assistants, and these produced twelve angels in the heavens, with each one
receiving a portion in the heavens.
THE RULERS AND ANGELS
“The twelve rulers spoke with the twelve angels: ‘Let each of you [52] […] and let them
[…] generation [—one line lost—] angels’:
The first is [S]eth, who is called Christ.
The [second] is Harmathoth, who is […].
The [third] is Galila.
The fourth is Yobel.
The fifth [is] Adonaios.
These are the five who ruled over the underworld, and first of all over chaos.
THE CREATION OF HUMANITY
“Then Saklas said to his angels, ‘Let us create a human being after the likeness and after
the image.’ They fashioned Adam and his wife Eve, who is called, in the cloud, Zoe. For
by this name all the generations seek the man, and each of them calls the woman by these
names. Now, Sakla did not [53] com[mand …] except […] the gene[rations …] this […].
And the [ruler] said to Adam, ‘You shall live long, with your children.’”


Again, to those who are stuck in the current KJV "approved" texts, this may not make much sense, but when it is looked at in reference to the creation story of the Khemites and the Paut Neteru. Of course this material was known at the time.

So moving ahead we get Moses. Moses is not a Hebrew name, Moses, most likely Tutmoses is a Khemetic name. Furthermore, a brief look at how the Khemites saw themselves should make it pretty clear that Moses, to pass as khemtic royalty had to look like khemtic royalty. I won't belabor that point because the real point is that Moses knows the Oracles of Ma'at and their attendant Negative Confessions. He knows all about Ra and how the universe and humankind was created. He knows how temples are to be built and whole lot of other things. Once we move past the epic "let my people go" story, we find the meat of Judaism developing. How convenient that after 400 years of "captivity" in Egypt suddenly people know how to build proper temples to exact measurments. They have oracles (commandments). How convenient that the word Amen suddenly shows up in the Plutarch. All these convenient coincidences.

So we find in Exodus 20:

1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


22And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

23Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

24An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

26Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

And there is more, but the point should be clear. You get a subset of the Oracles, and a whole lot of rules about worshipping that simply didn't exist before. A read of the latter chapters of Exodus and Leviticus shows so much detail in worship and temple building that to deny that they did not get this from Khemet is bordering on willful ignorance. What is perhaps most interesting is the forbidding of golden or carved "gods." It is pretty clear here that whoever this "Moses" is, he wants to break his followers from the myriad of neters that they were used to dealing with. and replace them, like Akhnaten attempted to do, with a singular "God" (who's rather bad tempered). The problem is that Moses ends up using the same very symbols of these "bad gods" in order to keep order.

Here is a specific item I would like to highlight:

1) In Numbers 21:We find the Hebrews are wandering around in the desert. They are apparently afflicted by snake bites. God apparently tells Moses that in order to heal the people he would need to:

6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


Now it's very interesting that Moses is told to put a serpent on a pole. In Khemet a serpent on a pole was a symbol held by Tehuti



and was a medical symbol. I guess we are to just take it as a coincidence that yet another Khemtic symbol is found in use by the Hebrews.

At this point with the exception of the Psalms, much of what is left of the Torah (Old Testament) is a matter of national history and folklore, much of which is particularly relevant to this discussion. The parts that are relevant are the references to the son of god such as that found in Daniel and the various prophesies (Isaiah, etc.) are related to what we will now discuss: New Testament material.

In Christianity the main thrust of the New Testament is the conception, birth, life of, death and resurection of Jesus. In Islam, the Quran, which comes after the Bible, pulls from the same material that the Bible does and includes material "banned" from the Christian Bible. Islam acknowledges Jesus, which makes sense, though it claims he is not God. The partial basis of this is that Jesus, in Islam is not the product of a virgin birth by Mary and some duppy (Jamaican for ghost).

So before going any further, we should present the original "Jesus Story" as found at the Temple of Amen (the Hidden One):




Let's go over what this image shows:
The Anunciation: Tehuti (bird headed figure), Neter(god) of Divine Intelligence and Word, hailing a virgin queen, Met-em-Ua. He is informing her that she will be giving birth to a son.

The Conception: Knum (cow headed figure), the fashioner or moulder, with Het-Heru (figure with the sun disk between cow horns), special Neter (goddess) of women, points the Ankh, symbol of life, to the queen. thus the queen has conceived by "Divine intervention." Note that her stomach is fuller indicative of pregnancy.

The Birth: The queen is seated on a stool while the child is in the hands of one of the nurses.

The Adoration: The child has been enthroned and is surrounded by gods paying homage. To the right is Knum, behind whom are three men kneeling and offering Ankhs and gifts.

Thus we have a story of a divine child being concieved by a virgin who is adored as the son of God.

Following up we should look at:




Horus the Child: Here is a depiction of Horus the child. As all neters do he holds an Ankh and has his legs apart signifying the fact that he is a "living god." He also wears the double crown which indicates his "royal" status.

Horus the Aged: Here Horus is shown as an adult. He holds not only the Ankh but also the staff of power. This is further evidence of his maturity. He also has the hawk head. Remember in the previous scene we saw him with his hawk head.

Horus the Avenger of his father: Horus is going to avenge the "attempted" murder of his father by Set. Incidentally Set is the Egyptian word for evil and with the suffix "an" becomes Setan meaning: the evil one. It should be noted however that Set was not always conceived of as a negative character. Similarly Lucifer was not always a "bad" angel.



Description of above scene

1: Ausar's body is being prepped for burial by Anpu with Auset giving direction.

2:Auset and Het-Heru mourning the death of Ausar.

Significance: Matthew 27:59-60 : And when Joseph had taken the body , he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And he laid it in his own new tomb....

Matthew 27:55-56: And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee., Ministering to him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses....

Matthew 28:1: In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

Again, people would have us suppose that these coincidential things are just that.

Lastly we will examine this:



Ani before the Oracles of Maat: Ani (the kneeling figure with the hands extended is repeating the 42 Oracles of Maat in their form as the Negative confessions. For example: "I have not spoken untruth." "I have not plundered the dead."

The weighing of the heart: Ani is being lead by Anpu( the Jackal headed figure) to the scales of Justice. Maat is the scale. We know this because her head is at the apex of the scale. On the right hand side of the scale ( nearest to Anpu) is Ani's heart. On the other side is the feather of Maat. The heart of Ani must be lighter than a feather in order for Ani to be allowed to continue. Should Ani's heart be found "wanting" the beast under the scale will devour Ani's heart and presumable Ani himself. We should also note that the weighing of the heart is presided over by Tehuti ( the same neter found in the birth scene). Tehuti is recording all of the events (recording angel anyone?).

The Presentation: Ani, having passed the weighing of the heart is lead by Horus to Ausar. We should note that Horus THE SON of Ausar is presenting Ani to his FATHER. Thus in a way Ani is going to the father via the son.



It should be noted that there are many variations On this basic story. Some have the beast seated On the scale and Tehuti under the scale. Some have Tehuti as the head of the scale. Still others have Anpu complete the ritual and present the soul to Ausar, Either way, the soul must go through an intercessor to be presented to the father Ausar. for reference:

# Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

# Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

# John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

# John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Let us go and discuss the resurection, the crux of the Christian salvation theory. If we look at this image:

we will see that Ani (white robed figure) has his soul returned to him (the bird) as he stands inside a tomb. The bird is holding the shem (an Ankh missing the phallic portion) which is the symbol of eternity. Where was Jesus put after crucifixion? We know that Jesus is said to have gone to "hell" in what would be his "victory over death." He would return and be risen. In the image we see that at the right Ani is facing away from the tomb ( he's also black but I won't get into that..ok?) with his soul. Notice the large sun disk over the tomb. Now isn't it entirely possible that aside from lifting this concept the..ummm..writers thought the sun was a rock? Is it therefore not surprising that the tomb containing Jesus had it's rock rolled aside? But lets not take my word for it. We shall read the Papyrus:

Let not the head of Osiris Anu be carried away from him. I have knit together my bones, I have made myself whole and sound. [writer's note: Did Jesus not have his bones broken? Was he not stabbed in the side, hence making him not whole and not sound?] I have become young once more; I am Osiris, the Lord of eternity... Let not Osiris Ani, Triumphant, triumphant, lie down in death in Annu, the land wherein souls are joined unto their bodies, even in thousands."

Do I need to explain? is it not completely clear that the entire story of Jesus is a rehash of Ausar and Horus?

What needs to be made clear here is that the mythos of Ausar (osiris) and Horus (Heru) are intermixed. We have the birth, vengeance and "presenter" taken from Horus and we have the resurrection taken from Ausar. It is for this reason that the Gnostics were so much more symbolic in their view of the new "Christian" religion and most likely why Mohammed decided to take the side of Jesus as Man in direct contradiction to the now Roman religion (both having pulled from the same source material and both serving political ends). If anything is clear here, it is that there is no such thing as an "Abrahamic" religion. It is clear by the documentation and history that the Hebrews took a whole lot of material from Egypt. This is expected as Khemet was kind of the "America" of the day. It is unfortunate that many writers will simply not give credit where it is due. Instead they insult us with "10 Commandment movies."

Now I'd like to address my charge that Christianity and Islam are in fact foreign to most of Africa. Clearly this cannot be said of all Africa given the early churches in Egypt and Ethiopia. However, even there I would say, given the information above, known to those early founders, that they were really continuing on with the Khemtic knowledge even though it had been diluted by the new comers and those with their own takes on these old philosophies. However; when we look at the rest of Africa, it is clear that Christianity as derived and codified by the Council of Nicea was in fact alien to those Africans. Islam, also being a derivative work (regardless of the claims made by Mohammed), suffers the same issue. Mohammed like Toussaint L'Ouveture, saw an opportunity and took it. In the end he mixed Persian influences with the ancient philosophies being bandied about and formed his religion. This is why his early followers would find refuge in Christian Ethiopia. For all intents and purposes the Ethiopians and early Muslims believed much of the same things. Since there were so many different groups claiming different spins on the same philosophies, there would be no reason to be inhospitable to any other group that was at least respectful.

In the end it would be of great benefit to all people to realize that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are derivative religions. As derivative religions they really do not have any special claim to any truth other than the piece they have and respect the fact that they don't have it all. It's OK.

[Edit 4-12-2006 2:07 PM: some spelling and grammar corrections and addition of some commentary]
[Edit 4-12-2006 10:07 PM: some spelling and grammar corrections and addition of some commentary]




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11 comments:

Anonymous said...

We were awaiting this post. Thanks for clearing this up for your readers. The historical revisionism of the "three major religions" is a heresy. Please continue to bring honor to yourself by making the ancestors proud.

Abdul-Halim V. said...

Interesting post. You get into a lot of material and to really do it justice a response would have to be equally detailed.

So I will just make a few general comments:

In Islam, there is the idea that God sent multiple prophets throughout history (until Muhammad); some are mentioned inthe Quran and some aren't. So many Muslims are open to the idea that other religious systems are also founded by genuine prophets. So personally I don't have a problem with the idea that ancient Egyptian or other "African" religions in some form have a divine origin.

So if you find similarities between Judaism/Christianity, Islam and Egyptian mystery religions, I would tend to respond by saying that God is certainly entitled to repeat himself.

And in general, if you want to look at African influences on Abrahamic religious practices etc. I'm actually fine with that too.

I think part of the larger point I would tend to make in this discussion is that the "Middle East" is actually more connected to Africa than many people realize. Which is why I think it is possible to be an Afrocentrist (according to some definitions at least) and Muslim or Christian or Jewish.

From my perspective it seems like you might be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

If the Abrahamic religions are derrivative of the Egyptian Mysteries or if they resonate with other African beliefs, then they should be more acceptable to an Afrocentrist. No?

For example, a lot of the theological foundations for Christianity were laid down in Egypt. And many of the bishops who went to the Council of Nicea were from Egypt and Lybia.

And if, Moses was also influenced by Egpytian monotheism as well, then the African influence in Judeo-Christian beliefs is so much deeper.

If the Abrahamic religions are just a local variation of African beliefs, why not follow them?

sondjata said...

well.
1)In Islam, there is the idea that God sent multiple prophets throughout history (until Muhammad); some are mentioned inthe Quran and some aren't. So many Muslims are open to the idea that other religious systems are also founded by genuine prophets. So personally I don't have a problem with the idea that ancient Egyptian or other "African" religions in some form have a divine origin.

If that was the case, there would be no -non-believers. Furthermore, the fatal flaw in Islam (IMHO) is it's insistence that it is the "final revelation." How is that known? Well that is a matter of belief in what someone claimed. This is why the post begun with the acknowlegdment that all religions are made for the benefit of those that create it and encompases thier world view. Mohammed's political needs requires that his word be final. NO other religion that I know of attempts this claim.



2)
So if you find similarities between Judaism/Christianity, Islam and Egyptian mystery religions, I would tend to respond by saying that God is certainly entitled to repeat himself.


But that is conjecture not proof. I would be more open to that argument if we were talking about Egypt vs. Ancient Meso-America. But when we are discussing a geographic location where such ideas are known by all, the idea that God is repeating "himself" doesn't hold enough water for my thirst.

3)
And in general, if you want to look at African influences on Abrahamic religious practices etc. I'm actually fine with that too.


But I'm not claiming African Influence I'm talking wholesale plagarism. Again, the thesis here is there is no such thing as an "Abrahamic" religion. It is clear Abraham laid no original thought on the subject. He merely claimed (as written by others) that he was told to "go here" and "do this." That is not religion even if we choose to believe what is written in the Plutarch.

4)I think part of the larger point I would tend to make in this discussion is that the "Middle East" is actually more connected to Africa than many people realize. Which is why I think it is possible to be an Afrocentrist (according to some definitions at least) and Muslim or Christian or Jewish.

Absolutley. You'll see in one of the links on the sidebar, that some people who practice "African religions" are not "Afrocentric." at all. If one is a Muslim, with the full understanding of the origins of said religions then I say one can also be Afro-centric. This is kind of like the Church of the Black Madonna, which I consider an Afrocentric Christian Denomination.

5)For example, a lot of the theological foundations for Christianity were laid down in Egypt. And many of the bishops who went to the Council of Nicea were from Egypt and Lybia.

You'll note that at time of Nicea, Egypt and Lybia were under Roman rule and influence. these individuals had already been indoctrinated. Had they not been there would have been an entirely different outcome. At least in my opinion. WE have to remember that he gnostics, who had much of the ancient knowledge, were branded as heretics for their adherancy to the more ancient wisdom. Many of the removed books of the Roman- Christian Bible,were removed because of their "gnosticity." Again, as noted, some of them ended up in the Quran (which I'm sure you are aware).

6) And if, Moses was also influenced by Egpytian monotheism as well, then the African influence in Judeo-Christian beliefs is so much deeper.

My position is that Moses was not influenced by Egypt. He was an Egyptian who founded what we know of as Judaism. Judaism and all those after it are derivative religions. This shouldn't be seen as odd since it is known that Khemet has had times when various "sects" would be in conflict or a Pharaoh would prefer to be associated with a particular aspect of RA and then priests would rebel and form thier own cliques. Judaism is simply one of those cliques.

7)
If the Abrahamic religions are just a local variation of African beliefs, why not follow them?


Since it is my opinion that these relgions are:

a) derivative
b) distorted, often in "racist" terms.

I see no point in following them when I can go to the root and get "full knowledge" rather than "partial knowledge." It is similar to my issues with Santeria. Why mix with the Catholic Saints, when you can have the Orisa directly?

Oof course if one is of the opinion that these religions are "cumulative" or "distillates" then you will disagree with my opinion. I'm ok with that. My real point stated at the end of my piece, is that if this material is truthful then it should be taught at the Mosque, Temple or Church. It Should be a part of basic history of religion. No one should hold an advanced degree in Religion without this material being taught as fact.

And 1- commandment movies would not be anything like the garbage showed on ABC.

Abdul-Halim V. said...

1)many Muslims are open to the idea that other religious systems are also founded by genuine prophets.

S: If that was the case, there would be no -non-believers.

A-H: Not exactly.I'm not endorsing some wishy-wishy perspective where anything goes. But even as a Muslim I can respect what is true and good and valid in other religions.

S: Furthermore, the fatal flaw in Islam (IMHO) is it's insistence that it is the "final revelation."

A-H: I'm not sure how you are different. You seem to be going back to your idea of a Kemetic religious path and are highly critical of everything which comes after.

2)
So if you find similarities between Judaism/Christianity, Islam and Egyptian mystery religions, I would tend to respond by saying that God is certainly entitled to repeat himself.

S: when we are discussing a geographic location where such ideas are known by all, the idea that God is repeating "himself" doesn't hold enough water for my thirst.

A-H: Fair enough. I'm not sure we'll agree on a line between human knowledge and divine involvement.

3)
And in general, if you want to look at African influences on Abrahamic religious practices etc. I'm actually fine with that too.

S: I'm not claiming African Influence I'm talking wholesale plagarism. Again, the thesis here is there is no such thing as an "Abrahamic" religion. It is clear Abraham laid no original thought on the subject. He merely claimed (as written by others) that he was told to "go here" and "do this." That is not religion even if we choose to believe what is written in the Plutarch.

A-H: minor correction, I think you mean Pentateuch, not Plutarch.

A-H: But when I talk about "Abrahamic religion" I basically mean Judaism, Christianity, Islam (and other related paths like the Druze, Bahai, Mandeans, Samaritans, etc.) who look back to Abraham's relationship with God. That group of religions obviously exists and can be talked about.

A-H: And of course there are going to be similarities between Abraham's religious practices and those of the African/Near Eastern world he lived in.

4)I think part of the larger point I would tend to make in this discussion is that the "Middle East" is actually more connected to Africa than many people realize. Which is why I think it is possible to be an Afrocentrist (according to some definitions at least) and Muslim or Christian or Jewish.

S: Absolutley.

A-H: Ok, we agree on something.


S: WE have to remember that he gnostics, who had much of the ancient knowledge, were branded as heretics for their adherancy to the more ancient wisdom. Many of the removed books of the Roman- Christian Bible,were removed because of their "gnosticity." Again, as noted, some of them ended up in the Quran (which I'm sure you are aware).

A-H: I don't think that Gnostic writings were incoroporated into the Quran. Although as a Muslim, I do think that in certain respects Gnostic Christians were closer to authentic Christianity than Pauline Christians.


6) And if, Moses was also influenced by Egpytian monotheism as well, then the African influence in Judeo-Christian beliefs is so much deeper.

S: My position is that Moses was not influenced by Egypt. He was an Egyptian who founded what we know of as Judaism. Judaism and all those after it are derivative religions. This shouldn't be seen as odd since it is known that Khemet has had times when various "sects" would be in conflict or a Pharaoh would prefer to be associated with a particular aspect of RA and then priests would rebel and form thier own cliques. Judaism is simply one of those cliques.

A-H: So if Moses was an Egyptian, Judaism is just a straight-up African religion.

7)
If the Abrahamic religions are just a local variation of African beliefs, why not follow them?

S: Since it is my opinion that these relgions are:

a) derivative
b) distorted, often in "racist" terms.


A-H: Fair enough in terms of b) . I think any religion is going to have multiple forms. e.g. the Klan and Billy Graham and Nat Turner,and MLK are all Christian. OBL and Rumi and Malcolm X are all Muslim.

Some forms are racist, other forms are less so...

But personally, I think you are exaggerating the derivative aspect. Even when you point out similarities it is still possible to see that new ideas have been added.


S: I see no point in following them when I can go to the root and get "full knowledge" rather than "partial knowledge." It is similar to my issues with Santeria. Why mix with the Catholic Saints, when you can have the Orisa directly?

A-H: Fair enough.But then a more general problem faced by other kinds of pagan and neo-pagan religions in modern times is that there is seldom (or never) a living spiritual tradition which has been preserved.

Faiths like Islam, Christianity, Buddhism (in at least some of their forms) have a notion of spiritual lineage, or apostolic authority.

But reconstructed religions don't have that. They tend to be individualistic and based on academic knowledge. Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but it seems like it could be a limitation.

sondjata said...

Apologies for the delay...

1) The problem is who determines what is "true and good"? You? Your text? The Imam? The problem comes down to judgement, most of those practicing J,C or I want to judge other systems based on thier own system but would balk at having the opposite done to them.


1b) No, my claim is the exact opposite, It is that Islam is not the final revelation (nor is Christianity, etc.) my claim is that those religions are derivative and therefore cannot make such a claim. I also noted that if one thinks that the latter religions are distillate (or refined) then you will disagree. I do not adhere to the "distilate" school of thought but acknowledge it's existance, however such matters are faith based. My discussion is rather history or fact based.

2)ok..well pass that

3)Thanks for the correction.
3b-c) Again, I've noted in the original post that there may be those that look back to Abraham as some mythic (or not so mythic) ancestor, but my original post's purpose was to show that Abraham had no real religion (as in organized as we know it). Therefore any group that attempts to claim descent from some orignal thought on the part of Abraham is mistaken.

4)When I say Gnostic, I think I may be using the term in an overly broad manner. I think it would be better for me too say that those marginalized ideologies often gnostic, were known to Mohhamed and some of that material is in the Quran though banned or otherwise distorted in the "accepted" Bible. So I'll apologise for making an overly broad or misleading statment.

6)ummm..let me see if I can give an example. Judaism is to Khemet as Blues is to Mali. Or Hip Hop is to Reggae or R&B is to Gospel or Salsa is to Egungun. They are related, derivative but not in thier original form (the metaphor only goes that far).

7a) "new ideas" Entirely possible but then again, a lot of people think they have new ideas only to find they've been found out before. The example I gave of God forbidding "Idol worship" as an example of a means to disconnect the Hebrews from the religion of the Egyptians, could be seen as a "new idea"but it's not. It, at least in my view, was an attempt by the new leader to establish "his" religion and his empire while keeping other things intact. I think Mohammed did the very same thing.

7b) living spritual traditions: Well a whole lot of people would disagree with you on that. There may be many "intellectual" "pagans" but in terms of Ifa, Vodun, etc. they posses "living traditions" "spritual lineages and "authority" though it would be inappropriate to say "apostolic" since I doubt it would apply.

Abdul-Halim V. said...

apologies for the delay...
there were technical difficulties with commenting on your site at first, and then later i was just mulling over an answer for too much time...

I'll just touch on a few things...

You ask:
S: The problem is who determines what is "true and good"? You? Your text? The Imam?

A-H: Sure (for me). But I'm not sure what you are complaining about. We all make judgements. That just goes along with being a thinking human being who makes decisions in the world. A person who chooses to accept Islam has in some sense, simultaneously chosen to not follow other paths. The same with the person who chooses to follow Ifa.

About other religions being derrivative:
S: ummm..let me see if I can give an example. Judaism is to Khemet as Blues is to Mali. Or Hip Hop is to Reggae or R&B is to Gospel or Salsa is to Egungun. They are related, derivative but not in thier original form (the metaphor only goes that far).

A-H: So are you saying that people should just listen to African music and not listen to Salsa, reggae, r&b or hip-hop?


S: "new ideas" Entirely possible but then again, a lot of people think they have new ideas only to find they've been found out before. The example I gave of God forbidding "Idol worship" as an example of a means to disconnect the Hebrews from the religion of the Egyptians, could be seen as a "new idea"but it's not.

A-H: I'm not sure I see how you are thinking about this. In Islam, not worshiping idols is the central idea or commandment "La ilaha illa Allah" or "no god but God". For Muslims, this has always been a part of God's teachings even before Muhammad (saaws). So I'm not sure what is the point of calling it derrivative.

S: living spritual traditions: Well a whole lot of people would disagree with you on that. There may be many "intellectual" "pagans" but in terms of Ifa, Vodun, etc. they posses "living traditions" "spritual lineages and "authority"

A-H: So are you a part of a community which practices/follows/studies Ifa or are you doing it more on your own?

sondjata said...

Ahhh.Blogger foibles happen.


1)Determinate of "good and true." The major difference though, which I pointed out earlier is that Ifa does not contend that it is the Final revelation. It is not only open to other past knowledge, but also anything that may happen in the future. SO your comment takes us right back to the "major flaw" discussion.

2)"derivative" You mistake the point. The music was a metaphore. You can listen to whatever you want, However, if a person tries to claim that Hip Hop has no roots in Reggae (or specificaly Dance Hall Dubplate) then they would be incorrect.

3) Idols: I think you, most adherents of J-C-I, and Immortal Technique make the same mistake in thinking that a piece of wood, stone, gold, etc, are in fact God. The original posts go to showing that such claims are the product of "deriving." I clearly showed that though there's all this talk of "idol worshipping" Egyptians, there remains, in full view, the use of Egyptian "neteru" in various forms. I won't really go into the psychology of the need for a "jealous" God, since it's pretty much irrelevant to the conversation.

4)I am "on my own" in the case of I am not trying to become a priest. I consider myself a "layperson" in Ifa, which most people were prior to the slave trade. I do keep company with like individuals and make the "neccessary" visits to the appropriate people. A large gathering of such people occured last weekend in Harlem.

TRES CEE said...

i will comment but with hesitation, because since you are so educated you have overlooked much that is true in the Most ancient book and because you ignore the sources of these things are parallel to the story of Abraham and his children and as well even the fact that the line of Abraham was probably a contemporary one with Shem who was from over the Flood in Melchizedek who was the Priest of Jerushalem.

You make yourself too great and step too high to say that that which was given to Moses was just a copy of other Religious Myths when the Very Myths of Much could be derived from the Names and Presence of the Sons of Noe who was their Father probably expressed also in the similarity of the names of the Greek Gods who were probably also Sons of Noe, and signs of Jesus Coming can be seen in some of the So Called Myths of Greece.

The Most Ancient God, More like the Hebrew God was not worshiped in the Time of Moses Tenure in Egypt and was reinstituted in a Pharoah when the Use of the Ahank was begun to be used and brought about rebellion from the Priests of Egypt as they were Diplaced from their Power and Rule, when this King Restored Worship of the Most Ancient God and this Probably occured immediately after the Exodus which could be a natural as the Destruction of Egypt would have greatly troubled all Egypt, so what do you have to say to this few words,

sondjata said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
sondjata said...

I'm simply going to let that comment stand on it's own.

Tricia L said...

RE: trec cee's comment:- I can't tell if he/she is extolling the superiority of the Bible over the older egyptian religions, or if he/she's referring to the pharoah who tried resurrecting monotheism and incurred the wrath of the masses and the upper echelons of society, Akhnaton.

"1)many Muslims are open to the idea that other religious systems are also founded by genuine prophets" If I'm not mistaken, they *do* acknowledge Jesus as a prophet.

There's speculation that yuya and tuya's mummies are the ancestors from joseph's line, which is why Akhnaton tried institutionalizing monotheism; which would make sense since it is also theorised that was why they would have such a vested interest in having King Tut disposed of as well...

I skimmed/ scrolled through most of your post because this general fact is not news to me, I knew of this since I was about 8-9-10 years old. I wanted to post a couple of comments. I'll no doubt get drawn back it later since the specifics you provide are too much too irresistable.

It's not hard to concieve. The story of Osiris and the cult of Isis/Mary have astonishing parallels, Egypt having the far older tale. Egypt was a huge, HUGE cultural and academic mecca at that point in time, Arabia was a colony for 800 years...

I remember my mother proposing to me that there was an ethnic reason why Mary and Joseph were encouraged to go to Egypt, because they would blend in... in any event, both the Islamic world of that ancient past and India have records of Jesus spending time in their parts of the world, calling him different name; my mother, who by that point was meditating, would say, "Jesus was a Yogi. He went abroad to learn; that's why there's that gap in the bible..."

In regard to the hebrew alphabet and Joseph/Moses being the earliest ones who could write: you did see the news about the recent archaeological find that shows the modern (roman) alphabet originated from Egypt, as a shorthand, between their equivalent of our modern miners?

I tried looking, but if I missed it, I apologise; how come you don't mention Rastafarianism as a Judaic religion as well? In the Caribbean, saying they were the 12th tribe of Israel is a very common expression... Some tend to think it started with Bob Marley but that's not what I learned growing up...


I'm not inclined to think what they did was "plagaraism"; I'm more inclined to believe "Since there were so many different groups claiming different spins on the same philosophies...". I've also seen texts that talk about the Hebrews originating from that region, and being black, (probably not exclusively so).

I really don't think that back then they had a problem acknowledging where the philosophies were sourced from, and that the resistance, the institutionalised teaching that the foundations for our society were born in Rome and Greece, is mostly a modern thing; keeping a blind eye all the while to the older society that had the same parallels right next door.


The same reaction I got in high school when I learned about early Greek theatre's heavy use of masks, I had when I started getting exposed to written Vietnamese, commenting left right and centre how it looked a hell of a lot like French. Then I got old enough to watch Platoon and know the history of that region.


Perhaps so many in North America are inundated with images of a blonde and blue-eyed Jesus that this is a blind spot, but the Christian Bible DOES say that God took the earth and breathed life into it to make man. My skin's that colour, of rich brown earth... it's not completely obliterated...(wink)


-Blessings,
T