Some of Kriss's points were as follows:
Police brutality is a problem that comes from people having power and abusing it. It's human nature. someone [sic] gets power, they abuse it. others [sic] around them support them cause they abuse it too
This point is true for all cases of police brutality and is not in contention. Kriss highlights a point I made that is relevant to the organization: others around the abusing officer(s) support them 'cause they abuse it too. That may or may not be the case. Certainly there is the institutional practice of the Blue Wall of Silence in which officers who are not even involved do not come forward to point out fellow officers who abuse civilians because those officers fear reprisal at the hands of the same officers.
One of the more recent examples of this with the NYPD was the officer who went on air to discuss the rampant harassment of black and/or Latino males in order to make certain quotas. He's under investigation and there are reported to be personnel actions being taken against him. This underscores my position that the problem is organizational rather than just the actions of a few individuals.
Police brutality did not start with police beating up black people. It's always been around. Just in different forms
In that discussion I didn't mention black people specifically since I know other people meet the "short end" of the baton.
to me, it's [police brutality] is a fact of life that won't change
I don't live in the fairy tale land that a lot of liberals live in. I don't believe that crime will be eliminated (particularly in large cities). I do not believe Obama can wave his hand and eliminate racism, police brutality, etc. I'm not under any of those illusions. However; I do not accept the status quo. I do not accept that when such officers commit those crimes and those officers that cover it up should be able to avoid prosecution the way that they have been able to. I believe that it is entirely possible to lower the rate of such incidences by making changes to the organizational culture of police departments. Kriss disagrees:
but the justice department and increasing convictions won't fix that. It'll only make those groups even more prominent. being an officer is a thankless shitty job. As long as it's a low paying, thankless shitty job, there will be abuse and coverup... We underestimate how treating cops like shit (citizens, with pay, benefits, etc.) leads to them not giving a fuck
I disagree with Kriss's position that increasing convictions won't put a serious dent in police brutality. Nobody wants to go to jail, well let me rephrase: most sane people do not want to go to jail. If it is made clear from the top down that shooting civilians in the back, etc. will simply not be tolerated (since it is 100% possible to do police work without shooting someone in the back) and that those who do so will be prosecuted, sent to jail, and sued bankrupt. If that announcement is followed up by the successful high profile prosecution of offenders I believe that there would be a decrease in incidences of police brutality. In fact I would say that changes would be seen in as little as a year. In addition providing incentives to police for breaking the Blue Wall in terms of pay, bonus, commendations, would provide a decent carrot to complement the enforcement stick.
In regards to policing being a shitty thankless job. The first thing I would say is that if one cannot deal with jobs with a high level of personal interaction, then one ought not take such a job. But lets be clear here, there are a lot of people who get into the profession simply because they like being able to exercise dominance over people. I will not forget the conversation I overheard in a gym locker earlier this year, where a student who intends to go into law enforcement waxed poetic about how he'll be toting a gun around.
In terms of low pay the base pay of NYPD fresh out the Academy is $44,744 (http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_BenefitsOverview.aspx). That's more than I made fresh out of college. According to the NYPD website, one can be pulling in $90k and the end of 5.5 years on the force. Also by year 5 they have 27 paid vacation days and unlimited sick leave, medical, 401K and I.R.A's among other things. That may not be BP CEO compensation but it's not poverty wages by any stretch of the imagination. So I think, at least in the case of the NYPD, claiming poor wages as a motivator for violating a persons rights is pretty specious.
Do citizens give police a hard time? OF course. Sometimes they have cause sometimes not. I took the side of the officer in Seattle who punched a female teenager in the mouth after she interfered with his duties because I don't agree that citizens ought to be laying hands on police who are doing their jobs. I have an entirely different opinion on what officers who break the law ought to be subject to. In fact, I am one who believes that Mumia shot the officer in question AND that the officer deserved to be shot for violating the rights of the man he was threatening.
One of the reasons that citizens give police grief is because the state has enacted laws that are clearly aimed at raising revenue and not about safety. Speeding tickets given to citizens on wide open, clear highways are an example. The stopping and frisking of people without cause is another. I can name others, but when the state increases the power of police at the expense of citizens then there is going to be attitude problems. This highlights why I say that these issues are organizational. Organizations usually take on the values of the leaders. If the leaders promote an hostile environment towards the civilian population, then those under him or her will feel free to act in kind. If the leadership promotes an environment where respect for civilian rights are paramount then those who don't act in that manner will make themselves known and can be dealt with. People will be more likely to report abuse because they will feel that the department will reward them for it. On the outside such behavior towards to public is rewarded by more cooperation by civilians.
There are a few things that the justice department under Obama can do immediately to address police brutality:
1) A public address on the subject. Make it clear to all police departments that police police brutality cases will be investigated with the full force of the federal government.
2) Private meetings with the mayors and chiefs of police of major metropolitan areas outlying the issue and pressing upon them the seriousness of this issue. This puts the local management on notice that the fed is serious.
3) High profile prosecutions of the most egregious cases of police misconduct.
4) Establishment of an anonymous tip line for officers to report on brutality cases in their department so as to get around fear of repercussions.
I'm sure there are others but the above would definitely go a long way to reducing the incidences, help the public understand that their concerns on this subject are taken seriously, and help police departments have better relations with the communities where these incidences happen.